I, Spy
Debriefing Outed CIA Agent Valerie Plame Wilson

By Margaret Michniewicz

On Sunday, October 28, 2007, the Vermont Woman newspaper Lecture Series presented outed CIA spy Valerie Plame Wilson in what was only her second public speaking event following the release of her memoir, Fair Game: My Life as a Spy, My Betrayal by the White House.

Prior to her public address, Plame talked with Vermont Woman editor Margaret Michniewicz about a range of issues - from the threat of Iran, the possibility of an appointment by Hillary Clinton, women as spies, to the very personal revelations in her book about her marriage, and her battle with post-partum depression. The December issue of Vermont Woman newspaper will feature additional coverage of Plame's Vermont visit. Following are some excerpts from our conversation.

Vermont Woman: Given the concern we as a nation are currently being pressed to have by the administration about Iran - what are your personal opinions, as New Mexico mother Valerie Wilson, on whether the U.S. should at this time make a move against Iran? (This past week you told Keith Olbermann that there is "no doubt that Iran has malevolent intent.")

Valerie Plame Wilson Of course I have to give the caveat - I resigned from the CIA in January 2006 so I do not have any current intelligence.

But, I think it's fair to say that the track record of this administration in its foreign policy, particularly in Iraq, leaves something to be desired and here we seem to be saber-rattling again with Iran. Not that there is not [pause]… Not that there is not a threat that needs to be [pause] dealt with, but I think we are a great country. And as a great country we can afford to talk to even our worst enemy. And I think in Iran's case, what they desperately want is respect. And I don't mean to be blithe or glib about it but, unlike in Iraq's case I hope military action is absolutely the last resort, rather than the first.

I think this administration through its actions has so weakened our international credibility, our political and moral authority. We are in a very weak strategic position… and that is through the actions of this administration.

VW: [Prior to the attack on Iraq] I understand that - presumably by coincidence - you were in a meeting room with [Vice President Cheney's then-Chief of Staff] Scooter Libby one time? What do you recall about him, about his [demeanor]?

VPW: I don't know, I don't even remember what the topic of the meeting was. I was taking notes against the back wall… I had no particular reason to pay close attention to him then [laughs ruefully]. It was purely a professional meeting - just one of those ironies.

VW: Although that was part of that whole series of numerous "visits" to the CIA by [senior Bush administration officials]…

VPW: Yes, it was in the run-up to the war with Iraq, it was in conjunction with that. Yes, I found it unusual - but again, I did not know [at the time] about the unprecedented number of visits by Cheney and Libby to the CIA [that were occurring]… Again, I don't even recall [the meeting], but for whatever reason I was included - maybe because it had to do with one of the operations I was on.

VW: Indulging in some sweeping generalizations here, what have you observed to be the specific ways women make effective CIA agents?

VPW: And, again, these are sweeping generalizations, but I think it's fair to say that in general women have a much higher degree of intuitive powers, you know, that truism. They are much more aware of [pause] the nuances which a person might be projecting, in order to understand 'What are they trying to say to you? What do they think of you, would it be possible to persuade them to provide intelligence?'

I think you have to use whatever you can. And the other, I think, strong advantage is that in most places in the world women are really deemed second class citizens, which can work in a CIA officer's benefit in that no one really pays attention - no one could possibly conceive of a female actually doing something that was, ah, operational in nature. They're completely non-threatening. And so you avoid that scrutiny that might fall upon male officers out and about doing their job.

I didn't spend that much time thinking about what I couldn't do; I thought about what I could and [would] go after those [things]. I did not experience overt sexism, although it certainly exists at the CIA just like at any Fortune 500 company or law firm or anything else. It's still an old-boys network, for sure, [though] it's getting better… slowly!

VW: what would you say to the next president-elect, whomever she may be [Plame laughs] - if you were asked to be the new director of the CIA?

VPW: Hmmm… It's so hypothetical! [Long pause]

If you were asked by the president to serve your country in some capacity I think that is an almost impossible request to turn down. And certainly the Agency, along with the rest of the government, truly needs some good leadership - and the intelligence community sphere [should] not [be] politically tainted and I think it is so important to try to drive out the political influence that has seeped in to the CIA. I hope that whoever is appointed director next go-around that that will be their number one priority; because you have to get back to the core mission of providing straight, hard cold facts to the senior policy makers - not tainted by political pressure.

VW: Has Hillary [Clinton] broached the subject with you of joining her campaign or administration at all?

VPW: No…. My husband, Joe Wilson, has endorsed Hillary. I have pretty much had it up to here with politics after these last four and a half years.

She has been very kind in reaching out to us over these last tumultuous years because she, too, has walked through fire and she understands what it's like to be at the receiving end of these really terrible attacks. She didn't have to, but she did, in a very personal way, so that was really very much appreciated. And - we'll see how this all unfolds - I'm not… [First] I've gotta get through my book tour!

VW: [It has been disclosed that in the summer of 2004, the FBI received intelligence that Al-Qaeda hit teams were en route to the U.S., and that Plame was one of the targets.] Talk about a bizarre insult to injury scenario, you were threatened along with (your nemeses) Dick Cheney and Karl Rove?

VPW: No, it was [George] Tenet, Rove, and [John] Ashcroft [and me]. Yeh… Plame's voice trails off. This is a rare instance in which she does not elaborate in her answer, and it is likely that the apparent bitterness in her voice here is the direct result of what happened after those threats. The CIA decided not to offer her any security coverage. As she writes in her book: "To say that the CIA response 'disappointed' me doesn't begin to touch the betrayal I felt. After [years of] loyal service, I expected the Agency to come through on its standing promise to protect its 'family,' something that had always been a point of CIA pride… Other potential targets (Tenet, Ashcroft, Rove)… all had 24/7 secret service protection at home and en route to work… Clearly, I was on my own."

VW: Do you think that the CIA was made to be the scapegoat for the 9/11 attacks?

VPW: Oh, certainly the administration - as well as Republican members of Congress - sought to place the entire blame for 9/11 on the intelligence agency. It's so easy to do [laughs bitterly] because it is true that the successes are secret forever and the failures are there for everyone to see.

I think the most dramatic example of that was when the president was briefed at his Crawford ranch in August of 2001 - "Bin Laden determined to strike within the United States" [laughs incredulously] - The title alone! - should have captured someone's attention.

[But] the administration was able to fob it off - [and] apparently the president said to his briefer at the time, "Well, you've covered your ass, now get outta here."

The Agency has of course made mistakes, and the 9/11 Commission really noted how - after decades of dissonance - there needs to be really a much better, closer working relationship between the FBI and the CIA. But, this administration… There were clearly markers in the months leading up to 9/11 - that show they had been warned. George Tenet is probably a better one to ask than I because [as he said] he was the one 'running around with his hair on fire' trying to get everyone's attention.

But, this administration [disdain is audible in her voice] doesn't like to take accountability or responsibility for anything so why [would this be any different?]

VW: It seems to me that by its nature, fighting terrorism is not an easy [visible] target, and with the American people being so upset by 9/11 - I wonder if the [Bush administration] decided to just shift away from Afghanistan and the hard fight of trying to find Bin Laden and instead went for a nice sitting duck/easy target [in Iraq] where you could show your muscle, show off, and be able to say "we're doing something about the threat"…

VPW: Well a lot has been written about in those immediate days in the aftermath of 9/11… and it was Rumsfeld at Camp David who spread out the map of Iraq and said "let's go we've got all our…" There's no question about that. We had the world's support right after 9/11 - [as the French newspaper Le Monde's headline stated:] Nous sommes tous Américains. The world truly felt our pain. I hate to be trite about it, but they truly felt sympathy for us. And that was squandered. There was a great deal of support behind going after the Taliban that had nurtured and provided the support mechanism [inaudible] with Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden and we see the consequences today! Afghanistan is a [mess]. I am so saddened for my country. I think we are in perilous times and our meddling throughout the world has just brought such suffering.

VW:We discuss the ethical considerations of [U.S. actions in foreign countries] - I comment that we've had the scenarios in which the CIA has been involved with the assassinations and overthrowing of democratically-elected leaders. But then we also have situations [like with Saddam Hussein] where an evil dictator is in place, and "legal" wars are waged to get them out of power - but in the process, countless innocent civilians are killed; is it preferable to pursue the assassination route then?

VPW: [Pause.] That's for a whole course on international relations! The world is full of terrible dictators - but we have to ultimately choose what's in our best national security interest. I would argue that this administration has consistently chosen the wrong path of how to pursue… We project hard military power; we've lost the soft power which is influence in all the other spheres. And as far as the ethics… I fully believe that we need a strong intelligence service - no question about that. I love my country and that's part of what… This is a very dangerous world we live in. I focused on counterproliferation issues and found that to be immensely satisfying working to try and keep nuclear weapons out of the hands of the bad guys. I have no question about that so… we can only hope that the next administration - whoever it is - seeks to restore our moral standing in the world today - which is at an all-time low.

VW:Are you able to say, who are our biggest threats? Is it from a country like Iran or No. Korea, or is it rogue players, [non-state actors]?

VPW: Threats? You have to keep your eye on all of them. It would be a disservice to rank one above the other. You have to go after them with equal ferocity. Sure, there are a lot of unsecured nuclear stockpiles from the former Soviet Republic - there's lots of talk about a dirty bomb, that sort of thing. But then you also have a nation-state like Syria who [laughs incredulously] everyone seems to deny that anything ever happened two weeks ago when a building was completely demolished by Israeli fighter jets. There are many actors out there that we need… just for that reason we need strong intelligence untainted by political pressure to provide policy makers with the real facts they need to make decisions in this crazy world.

We end on a lighter note that includes discussion of some recent films. I'm not sure whether to be troubled or vindicated when Plame admits she was just as confused as me by the Byzantine plot of George Clooney's Syriana!

Margaret Michniewicz is editor of Vermont Woman newspaper.